Emma Peel has been cast!

Lhbizness · Post by **Lhbizness** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:22 pm

Is it therefore exempt from criticism or comment, based on available evidence?

I AM annoyed by the fact that Big Finish wants people to pay for glorified fan fiction. The Lost Episodes at least made some sense as a way of filling in blanks. This is just blatant milking.

Purrr · Post by **Purrr** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:26 pm

Alan wrote:No-one is forcing anyone to buy.

That's the clincher, no one has to buy the set, but if you dig deeper Alan, is that the point, I honestly think not...

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:11 pm

There are people who will enjoy these sets. I'm not sure if I'll be one of those people, but I'm prepared to wait and see.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't criticise them, or question their validity, but I will say that I know several people who work on The Avengers at Big Finish, and this is more about doing something new with a series they love than it being a money making exercise.

That doesn't mean that they will always hit the right mark or please everyone, but their motives are most certainly not, first and foremost, to do with milking the franchise or coining a fortune on the back of The Avengers. Besides, The Avengers is a niche within a niche these days - and the idea of Big Finish doing much more than turning a modest profit with these releases is faintly ridiculous. To say it's a "cash in" overlooks the fact that The Avengers is a hard sell today.

These products are officially licensed by StudioCanal, made by professional writers and production staff. As I say, they might not please all Avengers fans, but they are not fan fiction, glorified or otherwise.

It's also worth mentioning that with these releases happening, people are finding the series for the first time, coming to it via the CDs - certainly there was anecdotal evidence of this at the (now defunct) Big Finish forum, so even if they don't appeal to hardcore fans for one reason or another, they bring new people to the series itself, just like the movie did - and this is no bad thing.

Lhbizness · Post by **Lhbizness** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 1:57 pm

I like fanfiction: I read it, I write it, I enjoy it. Fans write fanfiction because it's an expression of their fandom, their love of the characters and of the show, their desire to expand the characters' world. The only difference between what Big Finish is doing and what any fan at their computer does is that they've legitimized and monetized it. It's the same thing: whether or not you want to think that is positive is up to you.

Big Finish turns a modest profit with these, which is more than ANY fanfiction writer can EVER claim. I think it's a cash-in - they have ahold of a good thing and they'll keep on producing things out of it. Fine - that's their right. But I don't have to like it and I certainly don't have to hug them for it. This is way beyond "fans doing things for fans." No, this is a company doing things that fans will pay for. I have no doubt that the people involved in it love it too - I'm sure they do. But I also don't think it's an altruistic motive designed to simply produce something they love.

In any case, I wish that Big Finish would leave The Avengers alone. Everything they've done so far has been what I view as bastardization of a show I love - and I have as much right to that opinion, based upon listening to almost every Lost episode they've produced now, as you do to tell me that it's the greatest thing ever. And I'm gonna keep on saying that until they produce something that will prove me wrong. Maybe this will, but I don't hold out much hope.

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:03 pm

Well, Big Finish have to invest in licensing costs, actors, writers, production staff, studio time, editing time, duplication, printing and publicity to get these plays made and published...

None of these apply to fan fiction, the only outlay for which is time and effort.

I'm not demeaning fan fiction, just pointing out that it's not remotely the same thing at all.

Spaceship Dispatcher · Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:05 pm

I'm looking forward to them, but then I have found all their Avengers audios so far enjoyable in their own way; I'll reserve judgement on both the cast and the production until then, but I already know that Julian Wadham works for me as an interesting portrayal of Steed even if Patrick Macnee himself could never be replaced by anyone. But that's never been the studio's intention in any of their collections from Doctor Who to Blake's 7 and Sherlock Holmes.

Lhbizness · Post by **Lhbizness** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:06 pm

Alan wrote:Well, Big Finish have to invest in licensing costs, actors, writers, production staff, studio time, editing time, duplication, printing and publicity to get these plays made and published...

None of these apply to fan fiction, the only outlay for which is time and effort.

I'm not demeaning fan fiction, just pointing out that it's not remotely the same thing at all.

It is monetized fanfiction, Alan. It is the same thing: it's an attempt to expand the Avengers world, with emphasis especially on canon. The difference is money, but the product is the same. If, as you claim, these folks are all fans of The Avengers, it's a fan production and it has money at the back and front of it and so can claim some level of canonical legitimation (well, we have the licenses!). It's a legitimation of fanfiction for a profit. And that does annoy me. But if fanfiction is not something to be demeaned, then why is it a problem to call Big Finish's work exactly that?

But my problem still comes down to the opinion that the Lost Episodes are bad productions and Julian Wadham, as far as I can ascertain, is only capable of playing Steed as a caricature, which I find disrespectful of the show, the character, and Patrick Macnee. So somehow I don't believe this will magically transform because they've hired an Emma Peel.

Alan · Post by **Alan** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:21 pm

Lhbizness wrote:It is monetized fanfiction, Alan. It is the same thing: it's an attempt to expand the Avengers world, with emphasis especially on canon. The difference is money, but the product is the same. If, as you claim, these folks are all fans of The Avengers, it's a fan production and it has money at the back and front of it and so can claim some level of canonical legitimation (well, we have the licenses!). It's a legitimation of fanfiction for a profit. And that does annoy me. But if fanfiction is not something to be demeaned, then why is it a problem to call Big Finish's work exactly that?

Look, I know that you don't like these releases, and I totally understand that, but it's blinkering your perspective. It is not monetized fan fiction - it is a professional product, fully licensed and endorsed by the copyright owners.

And as for not demeaning fan fiction, I am not doing so. Your argument is coloured by your dislike of the product - just because I express the fact that it is not fan fiction (and it isn't; it's a professional product, produced completely legitimately), that doesn't mean I am using the term fan fiction in a negative way. It simply is one thing and not the other.

But my problem still comes down to the opinion that the Lost Episodes are bad productions and Julian Wadham, as far as I can ascertain, is only capable of playing Steed as a caricature, which I find disrespectful of the show, the character, and Patrick Macnee. So somehow I don't believe this will magically transform because they've hired an Emma Peel.

I'm sure that it won't, for you at least. And I'm sorry that it won't, but I don't see Wadham's interpretation as a caricature, so we will always disagree about the perceived "problems" with the Big Finish Avengers range.

Much as I'd like that not to be the case - I have no desire to argue with anyone about The Avengers, and I'd much rather that it was to your tastes and that of everyone else too, but the subject of recasting and expectations will always be a divisive one, sad to say - and as such I totally sympathise with your opinions.

Lhbizness · Post by **Lhbizness** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:29 pm

Alan wrote:
Lhbizness wrote:It is monetized fanfiction, Alan. It is the same thing: it's an attempt to expand the Avengers world, with emphasis especially on canon. The difference is money, but the product is the same. If, as you claim, these folks are all fans of The Avengers, it's a fan production and it has money at the back and front of it and so can claim some level of canonical legitimation (well, we have the licenses!). It's a legitimation of fanfiction for a profit. And that does annoy me. But if fanfiction is not something to be demeaned, then why is it a problem to call Big Finish's work exactly that?
Look, I know that you don't like these releases, and I totally understand that, but it's blinkering your perspective. It is not monetized fan fiction - it is a professional product, fully licensed and endorsed by the copyright owners.

And as for not demeaning fan fiction, I am not doing so. Your argument is coloured by your dislike of the product - just because I express the fact that it is not fan fiction (and it isn't; it's a professional product, produced completely legitimately), that doesn't mean I am using the term fan fiction in a negative way. It simply is one thing and not the other.

But my problem still comes down to the opinion that the Lost Episodes are bad productions and Julian Wadham, as far as I can ascertain, is only capable of playing Steed as a caricature, which I find disrespectful of the show, the character, and Patrick Macnee. So somehow I don't believe this will magically transform because they've hired an Emma Peel.
I'm sure that it won't, for you at least. And I'm sorry that it won't, but I don't see Wadham's interpretation as a caricature, so we will always disagree about the perceived "problems" with the Big Finish Avengers range.

Much as I'd like that not to be the case - I have no desire to argue with anyone about The Avengers, and I'd much rather that it was to your tastes and that of everyone else too, but the subject of recasting and expectations will always be a divisive one, sad to say - and as such I totally sympathise with your opinions.

I am entirely at a loss as to why this is not fanfiction - your explanation implies that fanfiction is lesser (e.g. it is not professional, even if written by professional writers, because it's not monetized?) and that these adaptations are legitimate canonical additions. It is my opinion that they are not. Nor am I clear as to why you care to make the distinction between what Big Finish does and what fanfiction does, or why there's a problem with labeling Big Finish's productions as fanfiction. It seems to be the same thing, with the addition of the copyright holders (who had no direct involvement in producing The Avengers in the first place) making their productions "legitimate" and, it is implied, of greater canonical or artistic value. If I've misinterpreted what you've said, I'm sorry, but there certainly appears to be a value judgement here.

No, my criticisms are not blinkered any more than your praises are, and I resent that implication, or that this criticism is to be dismissed because I don't like the product.

darren · Post by **darren** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:32 pm

Covers are usually a strong point of the Big Finish releases but their Avengers CD's don't look that great. This one looks especially rushed.

I've not heard any of the series one releases as not being originals doesn't interest me but I've not problem with them making them. Studio Canal were very pleased with what they did so had no qualm in allowing them to adapt further stories.

I am curious about these comic book adaptations - seeing Paul Magrs name on an episode intrigues me as he's certainly got a style that's bonkers enough to work.